In today’s episode, Catherine Boyle interviews Dr. Lamar Hardwick about his newest book “How Ableism Fuels Racism: Dismantling the Hierarchy of Bodies in the Church.”
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Catherine Boyle: Well, hi there. This is Catherine Boyle, for Key Ministry the Podcast. I'm your host this week, and it's always a treat for me when I get to have a guest on. And today, I get to welcome somebody who may be familiar to you, if you are familiar with Key Ministry, and that is my colleague pastor Lamar Hardwick. He's known online as the Autism Pastor; he's a Key Ministry board member, and he's a longtime ministry colleague. Fun fact, Lamar, you may not remember, but the first time you and I met in person was at the Key Ministry conference in 2018. I was really nervous to go say hello to you, but you were very nice. So welcome today, Lamar!
Lamar Hardwick: Thank you. Just for the record, I was probably more nervous than you.
Boyle: Well, you didn't show it, and hopefully I didn't too badly either! Well, it is a treat to have you here. Normally we have people on when they have something to share, and that is certainly the case today.
By the time this podcast comes out, you will have a new book that will have been released on February 20th, 2024. We will be linking to everything we talk about in the show notes. By the way, the title of this book is How Ableism Fuels Racism. Did I get that right?
Hardwick: Yes.
Boyle: Okay, and you have a good subtitle in there, too. Would you mind sharing that as well?
Hardwick: It’s “Dismantling the Hierarchy of Bodies in the Church.”
Boyle: Okay. I think that is a very intriguing title. And I am always very curious about the back story behind books, and how they came about—and the why behind the book. So what is your why for this book? Was it one thing, or a combination of things? I'll stop talking now.
Hardwick: Yes, I think it's a combination of things. Back in the summer of 2020, we saw a lot of things happening in our country; we were exposed to a lot of things, like the situation with George Floyd. There was a really big case here in Georgia, where I live, with a young man named Ahmad Arbury, and there was also another case of a young autistic black man named Elijah McClain in Aurora, Colorado. And so one of the things that I had been working on, even from my last book Disability and The Church—I sort of lightly introduced the concept that ableism and racism are linked together.
So I wanted to—especially with the Church, rightfully so, taking a bigger stance on some of those issues after the summer of 2020, to help us to see that there's some underlying issues with race in our country that we haven't really addressed. And that has been historically, theologically and legally connected to disability. And so as someone who is—you know this is, we have worked together as colleagues at becoming more—helping churches become more inclusive of persons with disability. I thought, this is a perfect time to introduce this this issue, because we are champions for helping the Church become more inclusive of persons with disabilities.
But we also need to understand that disability historically, theologically and even legally has been used to sort of prop up some of our paths in this country that we're also trying to undo, when it comes to race. So I thought it was just a perfect time to introduce that topic, and to bring along the people that I've been working with in disability ministry to say—these things kind of go together. And the work that we're doing can also have an impact in other areas, as well.
Boyle: I think that is really just a fascinating insight. And not to puff you up too much, but I love that about you, because you do bring a lot of insights to things that I think are not being spoken by a lot of other people. So I always really appreciate reading and hearing what you have to say.
You just mentioned this hierarchy of bodies; that's one of the main tenets of this book. And that has had a really negative impact on the Church. And obviously, the Church has been a very large part of our culture. So tell us what you mean by hierarchy of bodies. I have an image of what that is, but I'm not sure that's exactly what you're trying to communicate, so I want to hear what you have to say.
Hardwick: Good question. So I think the simplest way to explain it is that there's sort of this invisible caste system with within our country, and even within the western church over the years, where there is a hierarchy based on what is considered a quote unquote normal body and soul, starting from early Puritan theology—their ideas about what it meant to be able-bodied. The closer you were to the center of some of those ideas, the higher up the caste system you became. Very early on, when settlers came to this country, two things were of primary importance in establishing that hierarchy: they wanted to create a system where it was about family and farming. So very early on, definitions of able-bodiedness surrounded those concepts. Very early on, women who were unable to bear children were considered disabled, because they couldn't contribute to the goals of family, and then also, bodies that could help with the economic goals of settling in a new world, as far as farming.
And so you started to see very early on, this hierarchy form that sort of lifted those up to a certain status, within the building of this new nation. And then the further away you got from those ideals, the more quote unquote disabled you were considered to be.
Boyle: Right. Yes, again that’s incredibly insightful. And I think it's really easy to see how, in particular when you're struggling to survive, how that can come about, but also—scripture obviously supports family, but it also supports the least of these! There's so many examples of that. And then you also talk in the book about the concept of Jesus as a disabled God. That really resonates with me, because a long time ago, I was having some health issues, and multiple sclerosis was ruled out—thank the Lord. But at the time, I learned that multiple sclerosis means ‘many scars,’ and Jesus is the God of many scars!
And many people after His resurrection saw that His body bore the scars of crucifixion. So do you think—or how do you think the Church can change their view about this hierarchy of bodies, by seeing Jesus the way that He bodily is, not only after the resurrection, but today as well?
Hardwick: Yes, that's a great concept that Dr. Nancy Eiesland—in her book The Disabled God—years ago talked about that. So many disability theologians sort of attached our work to that and carried it further. That's definitely something I did, but I give credit to her, the late Dr. Nancy Eiesland, who was a professor at my seminary when I attended there.
And when you look at the actual post-resurrection body of Jesus, if you learn what a real Roman crucifixion would have looked like—not necessarily some of the sanitized versions and pictures that we've seen—if those wounds were definitely not healed. He invited Thomas to put his hand inside those wounds; those things would have physically disabled Jesus. One of the things I talk about in Disability and The Church is the spikes would have actually been driven somewhere around the Achilles tendon, and not just the foot, which would have separated and…
I've torn my Achilles tendon and had it surgically repaired, and I still don't walk right.
Boyle: That's a brutal injury.
Hardwick: Yes, and so if you think about the post-resurrection body of Jesus, one of the things that I share is that it's an amazing idea, an amazing image—because we serve a God who reverses death but retains disability. So the image there is important, because with religious systems, images are what gives us a tangible way to connect with the intangible God. So what you see in the post-resurrection body of Jesus is a God who eternally identifies Himself with the conditions of the human plight, which is human limitation. And He decides—this is Jesus's decision—this is the same body who can walk through walls, but He decides to leave these disabling marks, and He decides that that's the way which He will be eternally identified.
You see that even in Revelation. I think what it speaks to us is—it gives us an image of a God who commits to solidarity with the human experience, from human limitation all the way through any other type of thing that humanity has to suffer through, and that includes disabilities. So Jesus, being the disabled God, provides us with an image that says that God, through His giving us Jesus, through the resurrection, has eternally made solidarity with human beings, and with the physical and material conditions that we have to experience until we get to the other side. That to me is a beautiful image of God, who could’ve missed being in solidarity with us, who could have erased all the marks of His human experience, got rid of them, and just decided to present us with a perfect body post-resurrection, but He decides—I want to show solidarity to the human experience, so I'm going to leave these marks and allow this to be how I'm identified eternally.
That is a beautiful picture. Who wouldn't want to serve a God like that? Who admits to being in solidarity with human beings.
Boyle: And it's such a contrast to—if you look at the mythology, the Roman mythology, the alternate gods, if you will, of ancient days—and maybe current days, too. We tend to think of those gods as like superheroes, like perfect physical specimens. And God chose not to do that. So yes, that is just a lovely picture of the character of the God that we serve, and who He is.
So all of this that we're talking about really gets to—that people generally, and maybe even the Church specifically—are uncomfortable with bodies of people that are physically different than theirs. In my mind, I think of this as the “othering,” making somebody and others be apart from me. This is just an opinion; I don't know if this is something that you even addressed in your book, but what do you think that reveals about a person's relationship with Christ, if they have this really high level of discomfort with somebody whose body is different from theirs?
Hardwick: I think first, it's important to just kind of acknowledge that is part of our human experience, part of what has happened as a result of—I’m saying there's a distortion, right? Like one of the things I talk about is when Adam and Eve ate of the fruit, they suddenly had an adversarial relationship with their own bodies. They wanted to cover themselves up. Prior to that, they were pretty comfortable walking around and being naked, and not concerned about what their bodies looked like, and how they functioned. So I think the first thing is that that's sort of a natural result of the fall, is to be uncomfortable with bodies that are different.
But I also think that it speaks to what we just talked about, that we have often been taught not to have a complete understanding of what it means to reflect the image of God. And so by introducing the concept of Jesus as a disabled God, we give ourselves permission to widen our understanding of what it means to be image-bearers, and that means that human limitation and imperfection are not off limits to being able to be displayers of God's image. And so when we understand that, we become less and less uncomfortable with bodies that look different or function different, because we realize that those disabilities are not distractions from being able to display the image of God.
So I think it's important that the reason why we do this theological work is to give us permission to sort of untangle and unravel some of those unhealthy ways that we've been taught to view the image of God, to look at Jesus as a real human being in history. Part of Him retaining the marks is to remind us that this happened in human history. This is a real person who walked around. And we can look to that image, even in Revelation it says that even though He was mortally wounded, He still stands, and was the only one able to open the seals.
And so even in him retaining the marks of human limitation, He is still worthy. For us to sort of unravel that, we look at how we can also be image-bearers and through Christ—not through our own work—but through Christ, we are also worthy to bear the image of God, despite the human limitations and imperfections that our bodies have to contend with, on this side of heaven.
Boyle: Yes, and it really gets to—does every person have a purpose in God's Kingdom? If they exist, they are made in God's image, and that's part of this great work that we're all part of—the disability and mental health ministry space. Well, you know our listening audience is mostly made up of families impacted by disabilities, or ministry leaders who are supporting, including and doing ministry with these families as vital parts of their churches. If you could, I would appreciate it if you could leave the listeners with just a couple of really main points from the book that they can apply in their families or churches today.
Hardwick: Yes. I think if I were to give one—it’s a chapter early on in the book, where I talk about desirability and how God doesn't show His love for us by simply tolerating us or putting up with us, but He desires us. One of the things that I talked about very early on is, I think that the church needs to move toward desiring to be in relationship with the disability community, not just trying to create space—which is needed—but there is an avid pursuit. And in that pursuit, there is this recalibration of what it means to be beautiful, what it means to be image bearers, and what it means to be desired in the same way that God desires us.
There's all sorts of other things that I talk about in the book, but I think very early on, I wanted to establish that as a foundation for the book. While I'm talking about ableism and racism, and how ableism fuels that, I want us to really take the position that God takes, and that is to pursue and to desire and to recalibrate our definitions of beauty, and seeing the image of God, and all of those that He's created, and to want to be around them, and want them to be around us, more than just as a project.
Boyle: Yes, nobody wants to be your project!
Hardwick: Right. And it's something that, I think once you read that chapter, it helps to shape everything else that I'm going to say about ableism and race, and it’s that God desires us and we should desire others in the same way that God pursues us.
Boyle: Well, that is just so insightful, and I love that, because we don't—speaking for myself—I don't have anything to offer God, but He desires me anyway. And the same is true for everyone else. God creates the universe; what can we do? Not a whole lot! It doesn't make a lot of sense that He would want us to be in fellowship with Him, but yet He does, because He wants a family, as you mentioned at the beginning. And He makes space for everybody to be part of that family.
Lamar, thank you so much for this time, just to give a little taste of this book to our audience. I'm really excited about it for you. We will have links in the show notes to your website, to autismpastor.com, and the other places where people can find the books.
I also wanted to let everybody know who's listening that Lamar is going to be speaking for us at Disability and The Church 2024; that's May 1st - 3rd in Orlando this year. You can check it out on the Key Ministry website. If you haven't gotten the book by then, you'll probably be able to get the book at the conference as well.
I encourage you to sign up for the conference if you're interested in coming. You’ll get to hear more about the book, more from Lamar and get a lot of other great content, too.
Lamar, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate you as a colleague and a friend. Thank you so much for sharing about this book today, and we look forward to talking with you again really soon.
Hardwick: Thanks for having me.
Boyle: For Key Ministry the podcast, I’m Catherine Boyle. Thanks so much for joining us today.
