Sandra: Hi, friends. Welcome to Key Ministry, the podcast. I am one of your co hosts, Sandra Peebles. And today, I am joined by Stephanie Houbach, author of Same Lake Different Vogue and the author of Abiding in God's Presence, a thirty one day devotional for life for special needs parents and caregiving parents. And so I am very excited to get to talk to Stephanie today because she and I have so much in common. I have been mentored by her through her books and anytime we get to talk in person. And so I am super excited that you are going to get to listen in on our conversation today as we really focus on how churches can meet the spiritual needs of special needs parents. And so I know our primary audience is ministry leaders, but there's a big overlap between ministry leaders and special needs parents. And so we're gonna talk through how, as special needs parents, does the gospel provide hope for us and how as ministry leaders we can encourage the spiritual development of the parents that we serve in our ministry. So Stephanie, welcome. Why don't you take a minute to introduce yourself? Stephanie: Oh, thanks a lot, Sandra. It's great to be here. I always enjoy talking to you, so this is a lot of fun. Yep. I, live in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. It's the home of the Amish. Right? So, I have, my husband, Fred, and I have two adult sons. Our oldest son, Fred, and his wife, Cecilia, and our granddaughter, Caroline, all live down in the DC area. And then our younger son, Tim, is our son with Down syndrome. He lives, at home with us in his own own apartment. So let's see. For many years, I led the ministry for the Presbyterian Church in America, which used to be called m and a special needs ministries. Now it's called engaging disability, and said, that ministry continues on. Right now, for the last five years, I've worked with our denominational seminary, Covenant Seminary in Saint Louis. So I'm their research fellow in disability ministries, which sounds a lot more hooty toot than it actually is. So I do a lot of networking with people. I try to help, build into, pastors and, Christian ed leaders and counselors, at the seminary disability ministry, how to think about it biblically, what are some of the needs families face, how can the how can people who are church planters, you know, begin churches with this as part of their DNA, right, so that it you're not trying to to, steer the Titanic in another direction. Yeah. Right. Sandra: Yeah. You really have your hand in so many areas because you get to go and invest in future pastors and future missionaries and, I mean, like, all these people who you equip and then they go out. And that's a really exciting calling, I think. Stephanie: Yeah. The the seminary has been great because I used to teach a class there, and then they said, you know, probably the best way for us to do this is to embed you in different things that we do so that there's more exposure to this topic across, you know, across, students than there would be if it's just the folks that take the one, you know, one credit class that I used to do. So, so yeah. So the Christian ed students all read my book and go through that. I mean, all the all the all the students go to have to take the basic Christian ed class. And, then there's I also, get, embedded into the counseling Sandra: Yeah. Stephanie: Classes and the apologetics and outreach. So so it it's kind of fun because you get it's a completely different dance. Right? Yeah. It's one of those those areas. And, so I'm basically a jack of all trades and a master of none. Right? Well, that was 30,000 I'm the 30,000 foot view Sandra: person. Right? That's good. Well, and the universe the universal appeal of your mess message. Like, it needs to be heard by everybody. And and this isn't just a children's ministry issue or it's not just a, you know, special needs ministry issue. The that what we talk about and how we try to equip churches applies to everybody. Counseling, ethics, systematic theology. It falls under all of those headings, so it's a really cool opportunity. I use your book, same like different boat. I teach a cohort in the fall and in the spring, and I I use your book as one of our textbooks. And it's super helpful, especially the the belonging and how we families have to make some they have to be vulnerable about what they need from a church. The church has to be vulnerable and make some changes to meet those needs, and then they're then you come together with that sense of belonging. And so that's been a really helpful framework for me and for the students that I take through my cohort. Stephanie: Do you know do you know where I actually started that little yeah. I saw you when we were talking. You our your listeners can't hear us, but you were trying to diagram with your hands. Right? I know which diagram you're referring to, and I actually used that in a, in one of Tim's third grade IEP meetings. Right? Sandra: Oh, wow. I Stephanie: was a teacher. We were having a particularly challenging time with, and that's where I came up with the model that I used in the book. Right? And ended up applying it to to church life. But that's kind of it's kind of funny how how God just uses these very practical challenges in our lives, right, to to help birth out. Okay. How do I how do I bring the gospel to bear on this IEP conversation? Right? Sandra: That's really cool. Yeah. I love that, like, creating a solution for you created a solution for churches. You're like, I need this. I need this framework, this language. And then when you came up with that, think of the the thousands of families and churches that are impacted by, you articulating that and Yeah. Making that happen. So that's super cool. Alright. So in our time together today, we're really gonna focus in on how churches can support parents like you and like me, because we have some unique needs. There's really a lot of things that that are challenging in a unique way to special needs parents, especially in those things that you talk that that really are the long haul. We're in these kind of things for the long haul. So what are some challenges that you think of that are unique to special needs parents or that we just may feel more acutely as special needs parents? Stephanie: I think in Same Like Different Boat, I quoted, Helen Featherstone who, wrote a book, oh, boy, back in the eighties, I think, called A Difference in the Family. And she talks about how families affected by by disability experience differences of degree, right, than other families. And so there's this tendency sometimes to even especially in large churches, right, to put people with disabilities and and and families affected by disabilities and some other some other distinct kind of category in ministry silo. And I and I'm not saying that that's that's inherently wrong because that's how large groups of people tend to organize themselves. Right? Yeah. I think it also communicates though that the lives of these people are wholly different, w h o l l y, like, completely different, right, than other people's lives, which really just isn't true. It's all the same stressors and struggles that everybody has, but often to a difference of degree in a cumulative way. Right? So not just one or two areas like education or social aspects of life. Every and so it's the cumulative effect of those things that then creates, can create a lot of stress, in the life of a family affected by disability. But it doesn't mean there are things we can't understand or relate to if we don't have a disabled family member. Right? You can still it's still connecting points across the board on all those topic areas. Yeah. So that's one you know, I think the stress that comes from that cumulative effect I think one of the one of the outpourings of that kind of stress in the life of a family, especially if they're not well resourced by friends, by, carrying diaconal ministries in the church, by even, decent social service systems, you know, in their area is, is the high level of frustration, right, that can can come. And out of that can flow some resentment. Right? And so I think that there's it's kind of a triad. Right? If if the stress isn't isn't, addressed well and understood well, it can lead easily to frustration that can can kind of make you settle, you know, in an area of resentment and resignation. Right? Sandra: Yeah. Stephanie: Versus versus acceptance, which is a whole different animal. Sandra: Yeah. Yeah. And I think we can get worn down sometimes. Like you said, resignation. Like, we're in this for the long haul. And if we don't develop some good habits or have that good support system early on, by the time you're my age with a teenager, it just and and you feel especially isolated because your teenager can't do the things that other teenagers are doing. And so the enemy whispers in your ear, you are too different. You can't find community here. It's not worth reaching out and asking for help. And so we have those hints of it, and then they're compounded by something that may be small, and then it grows and grows. And until we can fight that with the truth of the gospel, we're just in our loneliness or frustration or anger or resentment or whatever, we would tend to struggle with anyway Stephanie: Right. Sandra: Is compounded as you said. Stephanie: And then and then you can end up in a really into this category of hopelessness. Right? And that's and and, of course, the message of the gospel is one of hope. Right? Not not just for the next life, but for this life as well. Right? And so, that's where I think the power of the gospel to really address I think we failed to see how much the gospel just really addresses the everyday issues of our lives in a way that infuses hope. Right? Whereas, especially as parents often will try to find our hope in the in the material resources around us. If I just had better funding or better caregivers or caregivers that actually showed up half the time, right, or whatever the the Sandra: thing is. Stephanie: They're better teachers Sandra: for Stephanie: if your kid's still in elementary school. Right? Sandra: Yeah. Stephanie: Versus and it's not that those things don't matter. I'm not saying the material doesn't matter. But that but that our the anchor of our hope has to be in Christ himself and in his provision for us. Right? Both material and centrally of himself. Right? I mean, that's where the hope of the gospel where it anchor anchors us. Is Christ himself enough? Right? I mean, even if I don't get the other resources I that I really want or feel that I need. Sandra: Yeah. It makes me think of, in the gospels, the hemorrhaging woman and how it says she went to doctor after doctor and couldn't find relief. And so all she wanted on that day that she encountered Jesus, she thought if I just touched the hem of his robe, I would find hope. And then he feels that, and he offers her so much more. He offers her everything that he is, calls her daughter, heals her. And so you think of all those other places that and we all I mean, we do have to go to the doctor. We do, you know, so those aren't wrong. But if we're looking in all those places for our hope, then it's in the wrong it's in the wrong direction. But then we think, well, we'll get by with just a little bit of Jesus when he offers us so much more of himself. Stephanie: Yes. You know that, Rebecca McLaughlin has a book out. The name is escaping me at the time, but it's a it's a book on apologetics, and she has a chapter in there where she looks at, John 11 where, where Jesus lingers for several days and his good friend Lazarus dies. Right? So he gets there and Martha says, oh, you know, master, if you had been here, that he would not have died. But I know, right, that he that you could still do something about this. Right? And and Jesus, you know, says to one you know, there, you know, there will be a resurrection. Right? And, now I may be getting my story mixed up here. I the idea the point being sorry. The the idea being that that in the conversation between Martha and Jesus, Martha is living in this space, right, between what she wants Jesus to do and what Jesus is ultimately going to do. And what Christ does in that moment is point her to himself and says, I am the resurrection and the life. Right? That might your very life, Martha, is not in Lazarus being resurrected, but in actually completely independently focusing on me. Right? So I'm sorry. I tangled the the, the words up a little bit. But there, you know and and, again, that can sound really, kind of abstract, but but it's not because god and that's what part of what I did with the devotional, you know, the parenting and disabilities abiding in god's presence. It's is is really, looking at how is God very practically with us, with us and for us in all these different dimensions of special needs parenting. Yeah. You know? Sandra: Yeah. That's what I appreciate about it is especially because it's a devotion book is that you you can sit with that day after day. Thirty one days, you can sit in it and and feel that hope, that you write about with the practical examples from your life and then pointing us to scripture and then, of course, reminding us of that hope that we have. Mhmm. So what are some, thing some themes that you really go to in the book? Maybe a a favorite daily devotion or, something that you've even continued to struggle with even after you know, sometimes I think we write a book and they were like, okay. We've mastered whatever the book has written. We wrote the book on. But in something like this, God just continues to teach us and show us, the beauty of the gospel and the truth of his word. And so what are some what are some themes from the book that you're still learning or, some answers to the challenges that we have as special needs parents? Stephanie: I think, I, you know, I I told you when we were talking earlier that I I skimmed through it again this morning before I, people think that you'll remember everything you wrote in a book sometimes. And they're like, Yeah. So I skimmed through it again, and I and I was, and I kept and I thought to myself, I need to reread this. I need to reread this for myself. And and I do think that section on god's faithfulness, you know, that we have a tendency sometimes to think that god's faithfulness okay. Well, here so you're you're on Facebook. Right? Then somebody says, oh, we got the house we wanted. God was faithful. Right? Sandra: Yeah. Stephanie: What happens when you don't get the house you wanted? Is God not faithful? Right? So that God is god god is faithful because he's our covenant keeping god. Like, he is he has has committed himself to us in an unwavering way. And and when you look through if you go through and read all the passages in scripture that talk about god's faithfulness, I haven't figured out statistically, but probably at least half of them also say and his steadfast love. It'll be coupled together. God's faithfulness and his steadfast love. His faithfulness and steadfast love. And instead, his faithful unwavering and capable commitment to us. Right? He's not only committed to us, he's he's capable of seeing the relationship all the way through. Right? It pours out of his steadfast, unwavering love for us. Right? And, and I think the longer I've been on this journey, the more I need to just continue to focus on God's faithfulness to us. And and and it's not because we got stuff we wanted. Sandra: Right? Yeah. Stephanie: But because he is literally with us and for us and even the small challenges of the day, you know, and you've been Tim's 30 now. Right? So, there's a whole new sort of wave of things you experience in the adult period in terms of the not necessarily in some ways, you've kind of found your stride, right, a lot more easily. But in other ways, there's a there's a relentlessness to it, to the patterns of of sorts aspects of of living with disability, right, that, that it's can just can really weigh you down, right, if you aren't focused on on God's covenantal, faithful, steadfast, abiding love to infuse us, right, with the very energy we need to do the task before us for the day. Sandra: Yeah. Yeah. Like that concept of resilience. His faithfulness leads to our resilience in the Exactly. In the face of every day waking up, and you still have this calling, and you still have to be this parent. And and all your other peers are are experiencing the same age of life that you are in a very different way because they're not still caretakers in the same way that you are. And so what is how do I hold on to resilience? And and it's God's faithfulness and his steadfastness for us and and that it meets us every morning with new mercies. So Stephanie: Yeah. Sandra: That's really cool. I love that. One of my favorite ways when I face a new challenge is to remember what God has done in the past. And so that's a a way that I speak the gospel to myself to say, God didn't fail me here or here or here or here, and he's not going to fail me today. And so that's that that ongoing steadfast love that he has for us. Stephanie: Yeah. My dad used to always say that, faith is formed in the rearview mirror. Right? By by looking by looking at at how by remembering. And you see that in the in the old testament in particular a lot. Remember, remember, remember. Right? Remember the faithful works of the Lord. And it's it's not that there's us remembering validates God's faithfulness. It's just that we're so prone to forget. Yeah. That the God who cannot be he cannot not be faithful. I mean, in terms of his character, it's impossible for him to not be faithful, but it's very possible for us to forget. Sandra: Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Stephanie: So Sandra: Yeah. Right. And I think a part of that is telling, which is what what you and I do in these conversations and what you do in the book is when I need to borrow some of that faith Yeah. Your life speaks that to me because you have seen God faithful over and over again. And so it's remembering and it's also telling, like, how we tell others this is how God was faithful to me. And you can borrow some of that today if you need to because I can I have lived this. I have seen it, and I know we will see it in your life as well. Stephanie: And I will need to borrow it from you at some point again. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Sandra: Which I think is one of the ways that that families like ours bless the churches that we're a part of. I mean, if if a family hasn't experienced, like a plan b situation, you know, getting a diagnosis, and then they do that at some point. And then who are they gonna look to? Well, they're gonna look to somebody else who has experienced that in their own lives, and they see that in families like us. And so then we have an opportunity to speak the gospel into their lives and encourage them to say, we've seen God faithful again and again. So I just Yeah. Stephanie: I think I think relentlessness, we can always I often refer to as one of those kind of theme, and I think you'd agree with me in this themes that runs through the life of a family affected by disability. I I have a friend who says that disability is not like cancer. You don't get to the other side of it. And he doesn't say that to minimize cancer, right, in any way. It's a terrible community. But it does there's I always tell people, if you like closure, don't get into disability. Yeah. Right. But but here's the thing. I guess what I'm trying to say is that relentlessness is something that many people actually can't do experience in different areas of life and don't actually see that connecting point across categories. You know? People who struggle with addiction are in struggle set of relentless. Poverty can be relentless. Right? All sorts of of, situations that involve, say, emotional suffering. Right? And trauma could be relentless. Right? So there's there are a lot of areas in life where there is relentless difficulty. And I think special needs families are particularly suited to actually okay. I'm gonna say it this way without sounding snarky. School the church in the best kind of way. Yeah. Yeah. Right? On how to how to we know how to do crisis care. Right? We aren't so good typically at at relentlessness as a body. Right? Yes. We like the stuff that you can check off the boxes, deliver the casserole, send the card, and Sandra: move Stephanie: on to the next thing. Right? And so I think we have a lot of areas to grow, and I'm not judging the church for this in any way. I love the church. You know, we as as a society, we put people with disabilities out in the margins and institutionalize them for an entire century. Right? And so so we're still playing catch up, right, as, you know, in The United States for sure in terms of how do we do this much more integrated dance that the scriptures talk about that we just culturally had removed ourselves from, as a society for a long period. Sandra: Yeah. That's really interesting. That's that's one of those ways the church can come alongside families like ours and encourage us and strengthen us, but they collectively get compassion fatigue because of the relentlessness the relentlessness of it. So that's a really good way to frame it. And so we have to continue as a church. Now now I'm speaking at we as church ministry leaders. We have to go to the gospel every day and be renewed by that so that we can turn around and pour into the people that we're caring for, the people that God brings into our community. Stephanie: Yep. Sandra: No. It's a lot. Stephanie: Gospel gospel fuel. Right? Yeah. Sandra: I like that. Stephanie: Like that's like gossip you know, you get gospel fuel for forgiveness by remembering how much Christ has forgiven you. Right? Sandra: Yeah. Stephanie: The gospel fuel for mercy. Right? By remembering if I recognize how much mercy, voluntary sorrow that enjoins itself to the suffering of another, how much God has moved toward me in that way. Right? And so, all those different different ways of what actually when we remember, again, how god has been faithful to us in those ways that we are actually able to turn around and, and help to infuse that, right, into the body life of wherever we are. Sandra: It's Stephanie: really easy for churches to look at families affected by disability as consumers of their care. Right? Which it which I'm and I'm not minimizing that there is care that actually needs to be Yeah. To be offered. Right? It does. But it's but it's so much more than that. Right? And there's always going to be a, an unhealthy tension if people with disabilities are perceived as consumers of the church's care and not those who have gifts and and insight, right, and, blessing to bring to the body of Christ. Right? So so I guess my my goal is always to help churches to look at families affected by disability with a positive sense of expectancy. Like, oh, what is God going to do here and turn our heads 90 degrees in a way we never have before to see the whole world differently in the way that he's done that in my life with Tim. Right? Sandra: Yeah. Stephanie: So Sandra: That's awesome. I love that that reframing of Yeah. Well, here's my expectation. They're gonna come in, and we're gonna have to invest in them, and there will never be a return on investment. Mhmm. But a lot of times, that return on investment is is different. You know? We just need different eyes to be able to see it and and to value, what families like ours bring to the churches that we attend. Yeah. Stephanie: So And I think that also is kind of this avenue by which God's doing a broader work, right, in areas of race, socioeconomic differences, cultural differences, right, in terms of of of broadening what, Jeff McNair would call, social ramps. Right? Sandra: Right. Stephanie: It takes an idea I Jeff's done a really neat piece of work taking the idea of universal design and architecture. Right? We try to integrate architectural design that anticipate someone with a disability is is going to be there. So it's not just a ramp on the side, but a ramp that flows through a staircase. Right? Sandra: Yeah. Stephanie: For example. Right? And so how do we create social ramps in our churches that actually, with a positive sense of expectancy, expect a much broader group of people from our community than necessarily is represents who we have in house right now. Right? Sandra: Yeah. Stephanie: And so yeah. Sandra: That's really cool. I'm always so encouraged when we talk, like, to think deeper, to love God more, to receive more, but also to turn that around and and serve better and give better. And so, I know this has been for us, this has been a quick conversation. You and I can normally talk way longer than this, but I just I know people are already getting a sense of of the encouragement that they'll get in this new devotion book and in Same Lake Different Boat, so that they can continue to learn from you like I have learned from you and and just have their eyes put back on Jesus every day through your writing. So, Anna, I appreciate you as as a fellow mom and a fellow minister and, minister of the gospel and all that the ways that you serve your church and just It's mutual, my friend. It's mutual. It's it's really cool to just feel even from Texas and Pennsylvania, feel this kindred spirit of mutual encouragement and, kind of that we can keep doing it. We can keep plotting along and doing the good work in our families and in our churches and and that it's worth it. So Stephanie: It's absolutely worth it. Sandra: It's exciting. Well, my church has bought copies of your book to give to parents, at a respite night. All the ones that came on a respite night got a copy of it. And so as as churches are looking to do their own respite nights this fall or maybe they're looking toward the holidays and thinking, man, what can I do to bless these families? And they wanna do a little gift gift bag or something. I think slipping some copies of your book into those gift bags would be a huge encouragement. So, it's been a blessing to me, and I know it's blessed the families of my church. So thank you for all of yourself that you poured into this book. Stephanie: It was fun. I really, really enjoyed writing it. It was it was a a fun experience to do, actually. And like I said and I need to go back and reread it for myself. Sandra: Yeah. It is the book that the gift that keeps on giving. You know? Like, every six months or so, pull it back off the shelf and say, what did I what did God teach me, and how do I need to relearn this, and how can these same words minister to me again? So Stephanie: My my hope is that that every page of it points people back to Christ. Sandra: Yeah. Stephanie: That he is with them and for them. Right? And his saving grace and his provision, his faithful provision, right, and his advocacy, right, and our hope for the future, all those different areas, and that and that people will see Jesus more clearly because of so Sandra: Yeah. And and live that out. That empowers their resilience and and the way they love their families. So Stephanie: I like that phrase because that's really true. It empowers their Jesus empowers our resilience. Yeah. Yeah. Sandra: That's good. Alright. Well, thanks for your time today. Stephanie: Hey. Thanks a lot for having me. It's been great fun. Sandra: Yeah. And all of the links that we talked about, even a link to the book will be in the show notes. So if you're listening and you want to make sure that you get a copy of Steph's book, go to keyministry.org slash the podcast, and the link will be there for you to grab and click on, and then order 15 copies like I did, and one for yourself and then one for, the families that your church serves because I know they will be blessed by it. So thanks again for your time, Steph. Stephanie: My thanks. Take care, Sandra.